what on *earth* is happening?

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lem_
what on *earth* is happening?
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i don't want to sound like a coward or crazy but the guardian today reported that the bank of england or someone similar is preparing for "economic armageddon".

 

 

i know that, i mean i have been told before, that marxism is not about an end of the world scneario where capitalism collapses and something fills that void. but "armageddon" - what does that mean?

just a long recession?

Alf
Depression rather than recession

 A deep depression with no end in sight for capital. It's diffcult to see how they can cobble together even a semblance of recovery at this stage in the crisis. We can certainly expect major assaults on our living standards. A comrade who has a friend working in the primary school sector in Greece told her that her wages had halved over the past year or two. That's why the Greek workers are refusing to take any more of it.   

lem_
that's kind of reassuring -

that's kind of reassuring - in a way. i mean from my scanning of the bourgeois press it seems that a deep recession is already fairly sure bet. so the collapse of the euro would make it longer and deeper - more painful? the telegraph ran a story the other day predicting the uk return to latin american levels of wealth! surely they don't mean slums! what about social security and the nhs - what happens to them?

jk1921
Don't worry too much.

Don't worry too much. Somehow, I think sports broadcasts will continue as scheduled for a while yet.

lem_
what does that mean

what does that mean :D ?

 

 

even with my Great Love for Humanity abstracted, fascism, solely private healthcare and dismantling the welfare state in general, would bite pretty fucking hard here!

lem_
this whole lem qua pariah

this whole lem qua pariah thing is pretty pathetic TBH. how are you going to overthrow capitalism withuot a basic idea of who your friends are? bullshit hipster posing plans, aside...

 

:)

Marin Jensen
errr... what?

lem_ wrote:

this whole lem qua pariah thing is pretty pathetic TBH. how are you going to overthrow capitalism withuot a basic idea of who your friends are? bullshit hipster posing plans, aside...

:)

I don't understand this to be honest. It seems a bit OTT as a response to jk1921's comment (which I think is meant as a joke). Or am I missing something?

lem_
oh it's not important enough

oh it's not important enough to discuss :-)

 

i assumed he was a libcom user? is jef_costello a fascist now?? someone on the guardian pages with his handle was saying how islam is an evil sickness that needed to wiped out or something like that...

jk1921
Yeah, I was just joking.

Yeah, I was just joking. Sorry, if that was misunderstood. It seems a little odd to me that in the midst of massive austerity, just months after a series of riots, they are still able to draw over 80,000 to Wembley for England-Spain. Somehow, Greece is still able to field a team for Eruo qualifications. I guess my point is that it seems we have a ways to go yet before conditions in Europe/N. America resemble the third world.

lem_
yeah i agree. it's odd - the

yeah i agree. it's odd - the token leftist press is not saying a thing about what ifs whereas the broadsheet right are scaremongering - surely at least to some extent. not checked the mail.

 

 

but why is that? and who to believe ;) ?

jk1921
HA!

jk1921 wrote:

Yeah, I was just joking. Sorry, if that was misunderstood. It seems a little odd to me that in the midst of massive austerity, just months after a series of riots, they are still able to draw over 80,000 to Wembley for England-Spain. Somehow, Greece is still able to field a team for Eruo qualifications. I guess my point is that it seems we have a ways to go yet before conditions in Europe/N. America resemble the third world.

 

Ha, no sooner do I write this, they struggle to get 40,000 at Wembely for England-Sweden. Is it the economy or the level of play? 

lem_
haha you're sports

haha you're sports *mad*  :D

 

the occup movement... it's only going to really kick off if theu realize that it's not just finincial greed that has cripled the economy but that marx was right. IMO. which is not something you're about to get from the mainstream press!! ha, them again...

RE

lem_
i mean because the banking

i mean because the banking system is not *obviously* going to create another collapse... that is if we ever have a temporary recovery.

 

amongst other things in marx of course!

Alf
marx being right

 But there are quite a few clever academics and journalists doing a 'so Marx was right after all' angle, which generally manages still to distort what he actually said. For example that he predicted the 'business cycle' - perhaps a last ditch attempt to convince themselves that the pattern of the business cycle still holds, when it has long been superceded by more or less permanent crisis. 

jk1921
The problem is that while

The problem is that while some may be more willing to consider that "Marx was right," this is usually only in regards to his crtique of captialism. The communist perspective is still lacking. The weight of Stalinism and the ideological campaigns around the "death of communism" are still having a severe effect on the task of figuring out where to go from the current impasse. In the U.S., there is an adjunct to this campaign right now. The Euro crisis is being used to show that its not only communism that doesn't work, but neither does "European style welfarism," which the right associates with both Marx and Obama!

Fred
Not only are they preparing

Not only are they preparing for financial Armageddon but they're getting ready for the Apocalypse too. Obama is stationing troops in N. Australia and the US military is cosying up to their Indonesian counterparts after a long period of sulks. Vietnam and the Philipines want a share in any oily spoils emerging from the South China sea, which the Beijing communisists claim belongs only to them.

And Israel wants to bomb Iran.

But CNN has been boasting that France and Germany have economic growth. Is the bourgeoisie about to pull a miniscule recovery out of the hat, or will it be a dead rabbit?

In the case of a dead rabbit are we not seeing the bourgeoisie gearing up for military shenanigans in the western pacific? I know they're always up for a war whenever they can get one, and it will serve as a nice distraction for any workers thinking of causing trouble in this otherwise "peaceful" and currently "prosperous" region. (Rebellious workers in China must certainly be in need be in need of distractions, ditto the American 99% of course. While Japan just gets radioactive.)

And, meanwhile, Israel wants to bomb Iran. What a wonderful world! Workers unite!

lem_
> The problem is that while

> The problem is that while some may be more willing to consider that "Marx was right," this is usually only in regards to his crtique of captialism. The communist perspective is still lacking.

 

 

Hi Jospeh [???]. I agree - I said as much - that communist perspectives are vital. But agreeing that "Marx was right" in this sense would be a very important step, I think. And anyway concerning academia... I never quite got that there's professional Communists or there abouts in academia ;)

 

A necessary first step? Or what?

"Permanent crisis"... scary! Does personal membership to a communist party ever become a material necessity of any sort? I have no ideas...

Alf
there's an article here

 Fred - what about writing an article for the website on the imperialist manouevres in the south China sea et al? We will certainly do something on Iran

lem_
i think the system may have

i think the system may have eaten my last comment?

hi, i was just going to add the question - is it an important step in coming to be a communist - accepting that capitalism is doomed because of objective tendencies in the makeup of what it means to make money?

 

 

e.g., anarchists might agree that capital creates its own grave diggers [the working class] but not - at least not essentially - that this becomes more and more important as capital's crises must become more dangerous?

baboon
china

Fred, I second Alf's proposal that you write something about the tensions around the South China Sea -these have been building up for some time. This in the face of what appears to be a new upsurge of class struggle - strikes, demonstrations, protests - in China itself (see libcom).

 

What you say about the US rapprochement with Australia is also very important in the context of growing imperialist tensions in relation to China. Tensions between China and India are also growing with the Guardian today reporting "India recently made clear its unhappiness with Chinese claims to sovereignty ove the South China Sea and Beijing's description of the north-eastern Indian state of Arunachal Pradesh as 'South Tibet'". With closer Chinese ties to Pakistan, Nepal, Sri Lanka the Indian bourgeoisie has cause for concern.

jk1921
Hasn't Australia been the

Hasn't Australia been the U.S. most reliable ally in the "war on terror," sending troops to just about every entanglement since 9/11? Did this change under the new Labour government?

lem_
economic armageddon: scary

economic armageddon: scary and dangerous

a long recession: better.

??

i think what is, mildly, interesting, is that because of these "boom" years, everyone is so painfully aware that we do *have the technology* to make a better world. no?

my only other questionz is about workplace struggle in these times. either A or B - how does one broach the subject of militancy in ones place of work? i am more than willing, at this late and dangerous stage, to take *risks* with my non existent career. but i would rather not take foolish ones. and am also rather shy.............................

 

 

 

 

also, and i'm sorry if this post is a pretty bad one, but haha we need some kind of "barbarism watch* on here haha! not like a countdown to armegeddon but something giving odds on different forms of barbarism etc., as the crises develop... i think i remember being, informed, of the fact that "barbarism" is also here and now but...................

cheres guys :-) !

Crisanto
Any thoughts about this?
lem_
hi,   i'm just logging in to

hi,

 

i'm just logging in to say hi really. was reading the headlines about greece... there's obviously a recession where i live [UK] - lots of closed shops. but it doesn't feel so gloomy you know? not yet, though i am worried about what the future is.

Fred
carry on smiling

Hi lem. It doesn't feel so gloomy because it's like " the wartime spirit." Everything is so bleeding awful that there's nothing to do but grin and bear it. Remember the Vera Lynn song: "Keep smiling through, just like you always do: Till the blue skies drive the dark clouds far away." But there ain't going to be no bluebirds over the white cliffs of Dover, or anywhere else, this time round. Not that there were at the end of the 2nd. World War. They'd all been slaughtered along with millions of humans, just to get capitalism back on it's feet for a few more years.

You say you're worried about the future lem (in the case of there being one lol). This is what you say to your mates at work. Ask them if they think everything is okay. Ask them if they're happy with the struggle to pay the bills and feed the kids and the way that healthcare is disappearing so quick like a magicians trick gone all wrong. (It reminds me of Tommy Cooper) Don't just " keep smiling through," and don't grin and bear it. That's what the capitalists want us to do. Instead complain as loud as you can and as often as you can. Say: "God, I'm so sick of living under this effing system, aren't you? When are we going to fight back? Why can't we get rid of it? What's stopping us? (Answer: the Unions - and ourselves, by just sitting back and watching.)

We are presently engaged in a War of Austerity organized by the world's various governments against the international working class. We have to turn this war against us into an international civil war against the bourgeoisie. Only that way do we stand a chance of coming out of this alive and healthy, and with a future we can look forward to. Comrade lem, we can't just worry, we have to struggle and fight as well. Otherwise we'll be eaten by barbarism, and hell on earth for ever.

Fred
War for Austerity

In the above post, instead of "War OF austerity" read "War FOR austerity"

Fred
I share lem's disquiet about

I share lem's disquiet about barbarism, but also fear the violence of revolution! But it's not as if barbarism is an easy way out. Look at Syria, where rival bourgeois gangs fight it out for power, killing each other and all who get in the way. Look at Mexico, where the drug gangs rule the roost, and engage in indiscriminate murder just for money. Look at Egypt, where the bourgeois forces of "law and order" stage manage a football riot in which many are killed, just out of revenge on those who stand against them, and to restore the balance of power in their own favor. Look at Japan, where nuclear power stations built cheaply and geographically mis-placed, fall easy prey to the forces of nature - nature itself a prime victim of the barbarous forces of capitalism - with appalling results for nearby humanity and the environment. What will it be like when events like these, on capitalism's peripheries, start appearing in western Europe and north America, in the very heartlands of capital? It is a truly fearsome outlook, especially for our children.

What hope is there then? As the working class realizes it's immense power and rises up to defend itself, the bourgeoisie will respond brutally. Rumania is a current example of the vicious response of capitalism to those who dare challenge it. And look what happened in Germany to those who took part in the first revolutionary wave, and at the outcome of their defeat: Nazism and the 2nd. World War. Total barbarism. So it seems like mayhem and murder no matter what we do. It's tempting to think we can stay just as we are: it's not all that bad is it, not too gloomy yet; we still have a few remains of the welfare state, and some folk still have a job.

But time is running out for the working class. Either we sit back uncomfortably and wait for the cancer of barbarism to get us, or we make the decision to express our solidarity, and to rise up and fight. Surely the choice is obvious?

Fred
lem started off this thread

lem started off this thread talking about Armageddon. (Im not really on your case lem, though it might seem like it, but it's nice to have a named person to talk to about something.) In Greece it looks like they've got Armageddon already, or a good imitation of it. Workers are losing just about everything they've got, in terms of jobs, social welfare, and even any wages for those who still go to work. So why go at all? It must be terrible for people who have kids to bring up, and the ICC seem to think that this sort of thing will spread throughout Europe. A cheering thought! But the question is: will it provoke us European workers into an attack on tbe system doing this to us, or are we going to die quietly, and probably hungrily? What do you think? I ask you because I think you have a job and a working community around you. I'm old and I don't.

There's an interesting statement on this site at the moment, from the Occupied Athens Law School. You've probably seen it. Despite it's source, from a place dedicated to the Laws of the Bourgeoisie (capital letters essential as a sign of respect) and the perpetuation of capitalism's rule, its a forceful description of what capital's breakdown and bankruptcy is doing to workers and others in Greece, and how its time now for us to fight back and get rid of it. Here's a bit that cuts to the bone. " It is clear that for capital, we are surplus (see the sky-rocketing unemployment figures) and that at this point, the reproduction of the labour force is merely an obstacle in the process of capital accumulation.". So it would suit the bourgeoisie if we would all just bugger off and die; though they'd still need to keep a few of us to exploit. What are we going to do as this state of
affairs creeps across Europe?