Pale Blue Jadal, War or Revolution and left communism

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Fred
Pale Blue Jadal, War or Revolution and left communism
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Having noticed a one line post from Leo on libcom, trying to raise Kurdish issues on a thread about the struggles in S. Africa, for which he rightly got slapped down  by lexist, I started wondering how Pale Blue Jadal was doing since their leaving the ICC and even whether they still  existed? 

In trying to verify this on the web I came across a group called War or Revolution who had attempted to form a connection with Pale Blue Jadal but got their extended hand of friendship bitten off.  War or Revolution were very pissed off by this but appeared oddly to vent most of their rage on the ICC, letting the  Turkish comrades escape on account of youth.  War  or Revolution don't like the ICC very much now, especially the ICC's  parasitism theses and concept of decomposition. They think the ICC has degenerated. However, they do like and think highly of the ICT.  

Yet despite their avowed detestation of the degenerate ICC they are still able to write this. 

[/quote] For us the organizational principles and statutes of the ICC are the clearest expression of what must be the class party from the organizational point of view. Evidently these questions can and must be debated in the proletarian milieu. But as for us, we continue to defend the tradition of the ICC in organizational matters, and this against the current ICC.[/quote] 

Looked at from outside, the Communist Left appears as one of the most contradictory  and paradoxical manifestations of political life today. On the one hand their analysis of capitalist society's gross deformations in its declining years, and their continuous clarification and assessment of the state of class struggle, is the only analysis that makes any sense in a vicious and bewildering world. But their on-going hatred of each other, when they fall foul of each other, reaches moments of red hot vehemence. And please don't tell me not to use the word hatred because that unfortunately is how it comes across.  Of course I could be mistaken and hope I am.  Perhaps it's all too easy when polemicising to get carried away? 

But given how much the fractions of the Communist Left have in common and how little in fact, seen from the outside,  over which to dispute, it seems like lunacy and a suicidal death wish for the working class  to go on insisting that such are the huge gulfs and schisms dividing the communist left that working together to further the cause of the working class is not just out of the question but shouldn't really even be mentioned till a few more decades have passed. 

But how much time do we have left? 

radicalchains
?!

This kind of post has been done before and I simply consider it gossip it can only stir up further negativity. All the groups think they are more important or at least very important blah blah blah. A good start would be to scrap the terrible archaic and wooden language. 

baboon
Fred, I've looked at the

Fred, I've looked at the libcom thread on South Africa - a proletarian response here - and can't see anything from Leo, just a put-down of someone called Borisjonson for derailing the thread.

On your substantive point one can only agree on the insufficiences of the communist left to cohere its positions but this is very difficult to do when acrimony takes over from political discussion - not only from the ICT but a feature of many of the splits from the ICC.

At the ICC meeting on WWII a couple of weeks ago the ICT comrade present was very fraternal and made some good points but I was suprised by his questioning of the positive elements of the 3rd International and the rejection of the trade unions as, once, fighting forces of the proletariat, putting forward a "timeless" vision of them as "negotiators" betwen capital and labour.

In the discussion on the ICT's article on "Putin..." etc., the group again put forward the ICC's "idealism" and its overestimation of the immediate prospects of revolution - the latter I think something that the ICC would agree with. The ICT however doesn't talk about its call for "Revolution Now" during the heights of class struggle in Poland, 1980, an overestimation clearly and politically rejected by the ICC at the time.

In my opinion there's also an abject response here to the idea of any political cooperation with the ICC in that it says the polemics of some forty years ago have left a bitterness that make any such work impossible. Pathetic! It goes on to say that the class struggle of the future will sort all this out showing the councilist side of the party builders.

lem_
I was going to say yeah this

I was going to say yeah this is gossip (which doesn't offend me but you know it is gossip) but 

Quote:
Looked at from outside, the Communist Left appears as one of the most contradictory  and paradoxical manifestations of political life today. On the one hand their analysis of capitalist society's gross deformations in its declining years, and their continuous clarification and assessment of the state of class struggle, is the only analysis that makes any sense in a vicious and bewildering world. But their on-going hatred of each other

agreed absolutely mate.

lem_
One odd thing is that it

One odd thing is that it predates the internet.

I suppose the ICC are somewhat to blame for developing the thesis of "parastism" but I actually think it a worthwhile thesis.

Perhaps the internet can help: create a layer of un-aligned sympathisers who can make stuff (the individual parties) cohere.

Alf
IGCL

I should point out that Revolution or War is the website of the International Group of the Communist Left, who we wrote about here: 

https://en.internationalism.org/icconline/201405/9742/communique-our-rea...

Fred
Regarding baboon's point

Regarding baboon's point about some comment from Leo not being where I said it was...baboon is right! It's on another thread titled "Any African libcommers?" 

Fred
memory going

Thank you Alf for reminding me who "Revolution or War" actually are. My memory, or shall I say lack of it, becomes an increasing liability on a day to day basis. I'm sorry! 

Pierre
Fred, if you don't mind my

Fred, if you don't mind my asking, trying to follow along with this thread I noticed some of the comments you mention in your OP are from almost three years ago...were you aware of this?

Fred
Hello Pierre.  No I wasn't

Hello Pierre.  No I wasn't aware of it. Maybe I'm past my sell-by date.  An unforgivable sin in bourgeois society. 

lem_
hi Stavros thanks for your

hi Stavros thanks for your comment.

i think as long as you are willing to discuss with the icc and its "sympthaisers" without being dismissive, then like you say psychologising is redundant to the discussion :-)