State's lie in Germany. The ICC falls for the trap.

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Tagore2
State's lie in Germany. The ICC falls for the trap.
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The state has recruited scientists and universities to prepare the people for "preventive and repressive measures" as harsh as possible. They consciously lied when they said the measures were intended to prevent "1 million" deaths in Germany. They knew full well that this figure was bogus, forged by themselves. The e-mails between scientists and state officials, which have leaked in the German press, prove this beyond dispute.

The ICC has fallen into the trap. Obviously, it's the same for almost all countries! All states have lied to advance their political agenda!

"There's no plot! There's no plot! This is all a proportionate reaction to an extremely serious epidemic!"

And these confidential emails? And this top secret report? You are pigeons.

Demographic data on age-specific mortality rates will be released soon. The whole house of cards of the "extremely serious" epidemic will collapse. What will you look like with your 2020 panic, your support for the drastic repressive measures of the bourgeois state against an absurdly overestimated epidemic?

You will look like 1914 socialists who supported the war, afraid by the lies and propaganda of the state.

petey
500,000

"This is all a proportionate reaction to an extremely serious epidemic!"

this is, in fact, correct. 500,000 dead here where i am, but that's aggreagate. the individual polities who came down hard have few deaths, the polities with lax response have more deaths.

it's no joke, it's no ruse.

Tagore2
Do you take me for a

Do you take me for a journalist? Give the death rate, not the gross number of deaths. In France, there was 1% mortality, which is extremely low. Mortality rates 1-1.2% are low, covid or no covid. Do you believe that human beings are immortal?

MH
Tagore, as far as I can

Tagore, as far as I can understand it the article you linked to accuses the German government of telling scientists to come up with inflated death tolls to justify repressive measures to tackle the pandemic.

I find it unsurprising that the ruling class would act in such a cynical way. But if the pandemic is "absurdly overestimated" as you suggest it is difficult to understand why the bourgeoisie would also be taking economic measures that are so damaging to its own self-interest?

More seriously you compare the supposed attitude of the ICC to the social democrats who supported WW1, clearly implying it has betrayed the working class and joined the forces of the bourgeoisie, which is frankly outrageous! Why are you making such accusations?  

Tagore2
The bourgeoisie is determined

The bourgeoisie is determined to create the weapons of its own destruction but also the people who will use them. It's in the Manifesto.

It's a bit as if you were saying that the bourgeoisie had "an interest" in the First World War, whereas for the bourgeoisie, the First World War was a failed suicide, and still the bullet tore off half of its head.

The bourgeoisie is determined to act according to its contradictions, according to its absurdities, and the management of the epidemic is just one more absurdity. There are people who claim to be Marxists, but they have never really understood the fact that objective determination is stronger than consciousness, that even when the ruling class is aware of its own absurdities, it cannot, objectively, refrain from committing them.

History is teeming with such examples. The partition of the German capital in East Berlin and West Berlin the last century and then the construction of the wall is total absurdity from an economic and political point of view, yet it is an absurdity that HAS to exist because of the contradictions specific to the end of the war.

This is exactly the same kind of absurdity that we are experiencing today, on a much larger scale.

You just do not want believe the bourgeoisie is as stupid and as crazy as it really is, you believe that the ruling class is consciously controlling itself, but that's wrong: the bourgeoisie is following its own determination to the end, to the scaffold, but there still lacks someone intelligent to give him the coup de grace.

The epidemic IS NOT serious, the excess mortality in Western countries is due to the aging of the population, the passage of the baby boom generations into the ages where mortality is higher.

When we calculate the death rates by age, we observe that 2020 is a "harvest" year, that is to say a year in which there are a little more deaths among the elderly due to an epidemic. But this occasional excess mortality is quite usual, it is similar to the year 2015 in France, and all the years prior to 2014 have an adjusted mortality rate LESS than 2020. The mortality rate adjusted to the age pyramid is a variable which makes it possible to correct for the aging of the population to compare the years between them: it is calculated in a similar way to the constant dollar compared to the current dollar.

But the figures will come out and it is time to get out of your dream, or rather the nightmare that the bourgeoisie has created for you: there is no planetary epidemic catastrophe, the catastrophe is the bourgeoisie which is incapable of manage the natural aging of the population.

Closing hospital beds "to save money" as the population ages and naturally falls increasingly ill was bound to blow up the capitalist health system. Well now the earthquake has taken place! And it collapsed a good part of the economy: -7% of GDP in the European Union.

The system is REALLY rotten from below, we first feel small jolts which the bourgeoisie ignores, then the system cracks suddenly! And that is exactly what we saw with this epidemic of a quite banal size for a harvest year.

The demographic figures will come out very soon: if you understand French, a video is coming out at 20:15 GMT (21:15 Paris time), about France. But we can do the same calculations for all developed countries.

I will make an announcement on the forum when English subtitles become available.

Forumteam
accusation against the ICC

In reaction to the statement of Tagore2 in #1, where he writes that: “you will look like 1914 socialists who supported the war, afraid by the lies and propaganda of the state”, the Forum Team of the ICC expresses its support with the post of MH. The comparison of Tagore between the ICC and the SDP in 1914, betraying the working class, is indeed outrageous.

One may be convinced that the ICC has fallen for a trap set up by the bourgeoisie, but this has to be proven by facts, which Tagore2 does not do. Any assumption that the ICC has betrayed the working class and joined forces with the bourgeoisie is not only false, but exceeds all limits and is therefore unacceptable. 

MH rightly poses the question: “Why are you making such accusations?” Tagore2 had the occasion to withdraw his accusation, but he did not do. Instead he avoided the question. Therefore we don’t repeat the question, but we request that Tagore2 never make such unfounded accusations again. And he needs to be aware that, from now on, any further post by him will be subject to serious scrutiny.

The Forum Team of the ICC

Tagore2
Your behavior is also

Your behavior is also subjected to an in-depth analysis. I withdraw my accusations that you are similar to pro-war socialists.

You are not like the wsws who bow down to lockouts and the health dictatorship.

But your behavior is ambiguous, elusive and weak; you refuse to comment on the health dictatorship as others have refused to speak out on the war; you tolerate cowardice and fear in your ranks; you admit that the stupid and dicatorial measures of the bourgeoisie could perhaps be justified because of the epidemic, as others have admitted the need for general mobilization without commenting on the war.

The Bolsheviks would despise you for scaring yourself off an epidemic that demographers show is no more deadly, given age-specific death rates, than other mundane epidemics, like the flu epidemic in 2015; them, the Bolsheviks who lived through the First World War, they who faced the Spanish flu and famine without supplies or antibiotics.

And if you want to censor my comment, go and show you and your "open" discussion. The proletariat will distinguish the cowardly and the courageous, it will remember your behavior in 2020 and 2021; and if you haven't been as abominable as the wsws, we will likewise throw you in the ditch for not being firm enough and smart enough.

Communist
In defense of Tagore and 'the culture of debate'

Forumteam wrote:

In reaction to the statement of Tagore2 in #1, where he writes that: “you will look like 1914 socialists who supported the war, afraid by the lies and propaganda of the state”, the Forum Team of the ICC expresses its support with the post of MH. The comparison of Tagore between the ICC and the SDP in 1914, betraying the working class, is indeed outrageous.

One may be convinced that the ICC has fallen for a trap set up by the bourgeoisie, but this has to be proven by facts, which Tagore2 does not do. Any assumption that the ICC has betrayed the working class and joined forces with the bourgeoisie is not only false, but exceeds all limits and is therefore unacceptable. 

MH rightly poses the question: “Why are you making such accusations?” Tagore2 had the occasion to withdraw his accusation, but he did not do. Instead he avoided the question. Therefore we don’t repeat the question, but we request that Tagore2 never make such unfounded accusations again. And he needs to be aware that, from now on, any further post by him will be subject to serious scrutiny.

The Forum Team of the ICC

Whilst Tagore's title for this thread is perhaps a bit inflammatory (god forbid that anyone shoyld feel inflamed), you have badly misrepresented it here. Where you speak of 'betrayal', Tagore spoke in terms of 'falling into a trap'. At no point was the ICC accused of having conciously betrayed the working class.

I think Tagore's comparison is perfectly valid when the 'moral' aspect is removed. I totally agree that the leftists and even perhaps a majority of actual revolutionaries have made an error of judgement of HISTORIC IMPORTANCE. That's where the comparison lies in my opinion and I think it's a valid one.

I too, made a post which went against the grain in a different thread and the 'forumteam' intervened - no problem with this, just that it's a bit hard to interact with an entire 'team' so I left it. Frankly the last part of your post addressed to Tagore reads like a threat and will put others off getting involved in the discussion - you shouldn't underestimate the amount of 'lurkers' who read this website without ever posting. I'd post on this forum a lot more often if the 'forumteam' didnt feel the need to make an official intervention any time the discussion went to uncomfortable places. But I suppose this is 'your' forum.

 

Communist
MH wrote:

MH wrote:

Tagore, as far as I can understand it the article you linked to accuses the German government of telling scientists to come up with inflated death tolls to justify repressive measures to tackle the pandemic.

I find it unsurprising that the ruling class would act in such a cynical way. But if the pandemic is "absurdly overestimated" as you suggest it is difficult to understand why the bourgeoisie would also be taking economic measures that are so damaging to its own self-interest?

Is it really that difficult to believe that some capitalist interests are capable of imposing an agenda which is harmful to other capitalists or even the economy as a whole?

All this track-and-trace and corruption and govt handing out bogus contracts to their mates is a perverse form of Keynesian economics. 

MH
communist wrote: Is it really

communist wrote:
Is it really that difficult to believe that some capitalist interests are capable of imposing an agenda which is harmful to other capitalists or even the economy as a whole?

In general no it isn’t. Some capitalist interests impose agendas that are harmful to other capitalists all the time. And sometimes a national bourgeoisie make decisions where its strategic interests trump economic interests. But in the context of the covid pandemic I find it very difficult to understand why almost all national capitals have made decisions that are so harmful to their economic interests if, as Tagore suggests, the threat is exaggerated.

And while capitalists will always find a way to make a quick buck I don’t think the bourgeoisie has invented or exaggerated the pandemic as a way of propping up the same world economy that it is helping to tank via lockdowns and closed borders! 

Having said all that, we shouldn’t fall into the trap of assuming the bourgeoisie always acts out of rational self-interest and Tagore makes some very valid points about the increasing irrationality of the bourgeoisie in the epoch of capital’s historic crisis.

And I disagree with some of Tagore’s historical examples but I do agree that fundamentally “The bourgeoisie is determined to act according to its contradictions” and that there is inevitably an irrational aspect to its management of the pandemic which stems from the contradictions involved in the survival of its economic system.

Communist
Theoretical question

Let's say that somehow the coronavirus continued on, in increasingly 'potent' forms returning every few months, and lockdowns once or twice a year became a 'fact of life', at what point do we all say it's time to get on with it?

I know that might sound a bit callous, but read unemotionally it's a reasonable question isn't it? Even if 'lockdown' isn't neccesarily what you might call a 'class issue'. On a political level wouldn't it seem urgent to make some kind of judgement other than just pointing out that this is merely a symptom of capitalistic decay.

Maybe I am just paranoid I don't know. There's probably a lot more paranoid folk knocking about now than there was a year ago. 

 

Communist
Health V The Economy - not just a lose-lose

I think at the start of all this the default 'leftist' (left of capital as you might say) position was 'we shouldn't have to die for the sake of the economy'.

Fair enough, I felt the same way for a while - it's a sound moral and theoretical argument, but these people are just speaking in slogans - 'people before profit', 'clap for key workers', etc etc etc ad infinitum.

But whilst the ruling classes 'profit' from the economy, the working class lives by it. No other choice. It's all well and good saying 'it don't have to be this way', but what is to be done right now? Because the revolution is not coming any time soon.

I'd also like to say, I liked going into work. I work from home now and I'm miserable. Some people love working from home, and these tend to be the 'professional-managerial' types who now predominate on 'the left'.

As I recall, Marx spoke of capitalism, and the birth of the modern proletariat, in terms of people being drawn together into close proximity by economic forces they have no control over. This then would create a mass of people capable of overthrowing the capitalist system. But with all of lifes interactions being increasingly monetised and mediated by Big Tech, when 'real life' is put on hold until Big Pharma come to our rescue, we're seeing an increasing atomisation and alienation of workers from one another. 

The fake leftists would have you believe that believing in the dignity of work, and the social bonds it creates amongst co-workers are utterly meaningless in a capitalist society. What utter nonsense! It is these very social bonds which contain the seeds of a new society.

I don't think these things are trivial. I don't think the fact that I hate not being able to go and have a beer with my friends is a sign of 'privilege'. It's just not. The fact that something as small as that is regarded as an act hostile to society, something inherently 'unsafe' is sickening.

It will take a long long time for society to recover from the mutual mistrust which abounds and will linger on long after the virus is forgotten. Between now and then, many petty-bourgeois become proletarians. Many proletarians will be left even without work. And the circus freak show alternating between 'woke capital' and 'populist capital' will go on and no with no end in sight. Grim times.

Comunero
Lockdowns are a class issue, aren't they?

> Even if 'lockdown' isn't neccesarily what you might call a 'class issue'.

I disagree with this stance. Lockdowns are state-mandated and enforced repressive measures, independently of what one may think about their necessity in terms of human lives. Not recognizing them as such could lead to eventually supporting other repressive measures or bourgeoise attacks, as all of them can be argued in favor in terms of their necessity from this or that perspective, not infrequently the perspective of human lives. I expect we agree on this and it's just a different understanding of what constitutes a class issue, but I can't see a way in which state repression wouldn't be considered as such.

Communist
Comunero wrote:

Comunero wrote:

> Even if 'lockdown' isn't neccesarily what you might call a 'class issue'.

I disagree with this stance. Lockdowns are state-mandated and enforced repressive measures, independently of what one may think about their necessity in terms of human lives. Not recognizing them as such could lead to eventually supporting other repressive measures or bourgeoise attacks, as all of them can be argued in favor in terms of their necessity from this or that perspective, not infrequently the perspective of human lives. I expect we agree on this and it's just a different understanding of what constitutes a class issue, but I can't see a way in which state repression wouldn't be considered as such.

Until Communists come out clearly in rejection of lockdown, we might as well not exist at all

Comunero
I agree. I don't really

I agree. I don't really understand how that's even controversial, the only explanation I can think of is that the danger of the situation (because it *is* causing a massive amount of deaths) combined with the very effective use of propaganda has (let's hope) temporarily confused many communists. Personally, during the first months I was confused too, I didn't support lockdown but I didn't see that it is necessary to openly reject and oppose it. However, I haven't seen any argument in favor of not opposing the state repression of the lockdowns that couldn't be applied in favor of not opposing police forces, courts, jails, the state, imperialist wars, and attacks against the working class during economic crises.

Communist
Comunero wrote:

Comunero wrote:

I agree. I don't really understand how that's even controversial, the only explanation I can think of is that the danger of the situation (because it *is* causing a massive amount of deaths) combined with the very effective use of propaganda has (let's hope) temporarily confused many communists. Personally, during the first months I was confused too, I didn't support lockdown but I didn't see that it is necessary to openly reject and oppose it. However, I haven't seen any argument in favor of not opposing the state repression of the lockdowns that couldn't be applied in favor of not opposing police forces, courts, jails, the state, imperialist wars, and attacks against the working class during economic crises.

The truth is the only reason I trust in the ICC is the distinction they make between the 'proletarian camp' and Leftism. Modern day Leftism is a juvenile cult of virtue signallers, fooled easily by slogans, lacking in substance and terrified of being seen to go against political correctness.

And I too, I realise that it wasn't until this year that I seen this divide between the proletarian camp and the Left. I think a lot of even Left Communists don't believe their own rhetoric about the 'left wing of capital', consequently they too either take the tail end of Leftism, or say nothing at all apart from a vague statement about how 'authoritarianism' and 'personal autonomy' aren't class issues. They might not be 'class issues' when talking in the abstract. But this isn't a philosophy lecture, this is real life unfolding in real time. We have to keep up, because yes - I too fear a 'definitive' defeat.